Carol Royle

Talking to Jon Kenna

Carol Royle is a distinguished English actress, admired for a career that spans decades in television, film, and theatre. Royle’s television career includes a myriad of memorable roles including Life Without George, Heartbeat, The Professionals, Bergerac, Casualty, New Tricks, and Coronation Street. Beyond the screen, Royle is a leading actress on the stage, having performed numerous acclaimed roles for the Royal Shakespeare Company, including Ophelia in Hamlet and Cressida in Troilus and Cressida. Her film credits include the international production The Greek Tycoon (1978) and Tuxedo Warrior (1982). She is also a passionate advocate and patron for several animal welfare organizations, including Animal Aid and Compassion in World Farming. Carol Royle continues to be a hugely respected figure in the entertainment industry. This interview focuses mainly on her early role in TV drama The Cedar Tree.

Am I right in saying it (The Cedar Tree) was your first television role? 

I think I’d done an episode of a series called The Racing Game  just before that, but it was certainly my first series, and it was very well received by me because my husband and I were just moving into a flat so we needed a bit of money. So it was great to suddenly get a series. I looked it up the other day on Wikipedia or IMDb or whatever and it said I had only done two years but I actually did three years on it. I did three series. The first series I didn’t do. I did three years after that. And I think that two years of that was the two episodes a week, then there was a final series which was one year of one episode a week. So I know that I did three years. On Wikipedia or IMDb or whatever it’s the wrong date. It’s not even the same date on Facebook and Twitter and all the rest of them. Even if you get it corrected in one place there’s no guarantee it’s not still wrong in another place, and it’s it’s absolute minefield, isn’t it? Definitely three years, so that’s that. 

That’s a good long run, I guess in terms of actual time to be devoted, because I guess it was the full year, wasn’t it, while you were filming? 

Yes, when we were doing a series it took up, I mean, if I did three series, yes, three years, it must have been. All I know is I left drama school in 76. I started Cedar Tree likely 77 because you left drama school in September. Was probably 77. Then I did 77, 78, 79. Three years and then finished in 79. I think, yes, I think it was about then. 

I think why it’s so fondly remembered by people is because it takes you back to being about seven and being home from school and watching it on the TV and it just takes you straight back to that time.

Yes. In those days there were rehearsals. There’s so few rehearsals for things these days unless it’s a theatre piece. Everything is so fast, and I don’t know if you know, but I did a storyline, on and off, last year in Coronation Street and I’ve also done lots of other story lines in other soaps. Those are quite nerve-wracking. You have to just go on set and do the scene. You have no rehearsals at all.  So you’re actually recording the rehearsal in effect. So, to know your words… Sometimes, if you’re a visitor, you don’t get your script until about three days before. Terrifying. In the theatre you’ve got a rehearsal period, which was lovely. 

I imagine that makes a massive difference because you discover things in the rehearsal, I guess?

Totally. When you’ve got some rehearsal, you can. You can certainly start to have more reasoning about the words being given to learn, they make more sense. They’re not just learning them by rote. You’re actually learning them through thought processes. Emotions. And that’s how I learn best is doing it through the thought process and the emotions. If it’s just sort of straight off the paper and straight onto celluloid, it just isn’t quite the same. Not to say that I think people who do this all the time on Corrie and stuff… They’re amazing. If you’re a regular, you do get your scripts quite a bit earlier. Television has changed beyond recognition since the 70s. 

You were actually coming into an already established cast, weren’t you?

Yes. Jennifer Lonsdale and Susan Engel left after the first series. That’s why those people changed. Yes, and so I sort of stepped in. Really to take the place of that third daughter, and I became a kind of adopted daughter. They put me in the next three series. 

Was that daunting, especially being so early in your career?

I guess it was. I mean, I’ve been brought up in the theatre so I wasn’t star struck or anything. The fact that they all knew each other, that could be tough, but they were very, most of them were very inviting, and some people were more aloof. The majority of people were really inviting and I became very good friends with Sue Skipper and Sally Osborne who, funnily enough, my daughter discovered she was at school with Sally’s daughter. The thing about The Cedar Tree was that because the turnaround was so fast getting two episodes into a week, we never left the set. So, usually, you will go to a rehearsal room, for example, working for the BBC. They used to have the Acton rehearsal room, people called it The Acton Hilton and that was great because you mix with all the different people and all the different programs all at the one time when you were in the restaurant. But with the Cedar Tree the set was up full time so we never stepped out of the set. When you walked through ATV, Borehamwood Studios to the restaurant, it was a little bit like the Acton Hilton in that you’ve got Emergency Ward 10 or whatever it was called. And you know, all of those people all mingling? Whatever was filming at the time, they were all in there at the same time. That building is still there. Quite what it is now, I don’t know, but it’s definitely still there. 

The time of The Cedar Tree was kind of just before a great mix-up of television companies that completely changed things, I guess. 

Once upon a time when you worked for a television company, somebody said I was going to do something at Thames, I’d know who my makeup artist was going to be, and I’d know who the wardrobe was going to be. It would be lovely because you’d be going back and they’d know you, and wardrobe would trust you and we’d go out and buy things together. And then it all changed and became franchised, so you just simply didn’t know anymore who it was going to be. ATV’s long since gone, isn’t it? ATV went quite early on and then relatively recently in the last kind of 10, 15 years they all kind of merged into one. I mean, I think they still exist in name, but there’s very, very little left. I think Granada is one of the few that really still have an identity, aren’t they really, with Coronation Street? Again with all of those… Granada, Yorkshire… you would know who you were going to see when you walked in. Wow, the costume Department. I miss all that a lot. My mother was a makeup artist. I find being in the makeup room, you know? Well, really comforting because it was what I was brought up with. My dad was an actor, my mum was an actress originally, they met at Yeovil Rep. She did huge movies and stuff. Being in the makeup department that much, with the actors. Can you imagine that? You get to know a lot of backstage stuff. It gets passed around in the makeup room and the canteen, I guess. Part of the job, really though, you know, it’s kind of important.

I’d rather be in a production which is a happy one but less successful than a very successful production, which has been really miserable to work on. You’re there for so much of your life, aren’t you? You’re with these people, and if nobody’s getting on…

It’s nice, for somebody that’s watched that particular program to think that it was a happy experience for those working on it. 

It was fairly happy, I think. I think it does actually come through in some sense. You can tell, I think. Philip Latham was adorable, really. And when Jack Watling, came in in the third series that I did, he was equally adorable. One of your questions I noticed was, why did that happen? (why did Jack Watling replace Philip Latham?) And the truth is, I’m not quite sure. It wasn’t, you know, he wasn’t poorly that I was aware of. No, so maybe he just felt having done three series that it was enough. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know, but he was enchanting to work with. And Jack, of course, too, you know. He had his own theatre, of course. He had his big family, all of whom were in the business. So you were with real professional people? Old-fashioned standards, theatrical standards with regard to how you behave and how you do things. So it was, it was great. It was a nice starter.

The character of Commander Bourne, looking at it from these times, could be a little on the snobby side, because that was the attitude of the day, but Philip Latham seemed to make it very human. All the characters had a warmth about them, don’t you feel?

Yes. Kate Coleridge played somebody who was sort of slightly more kind of quirky. She played the sister who lived in London. Said it like it is. So there was room kind of for all the different personalities. Jean Taylor-Smith was adorable… she wasn’t an extravert so didn’t fling herself into the limelight, she was just lovely, and dignified and excellent at her job…I liked her a lot.

I always liked the grandfather character. The guy who played him, I’ve seen him in so many things. He seemed like a character on and off screen. 

Yeah. He was, he was fun, and he was another one who said it like it is in real life. I remember, with it being the 70s, I, for some reason, I wouldn’t do it later….

I couldn’t do it later because I got older and slightly bigger, but I didn’t wear a bra on a few occasions. He got terribly annoyed about it and said ‘she should be wearing a bra!’ Same with anything diaphanous, so I think it was all kind of proper, you know? Almost like the character there, I guess.

Then there was Joyce Carey. I mean, she was legendary as well, wasn’t she?

Yes, she was in all kinds of things. And we became close friends. In fact, I still have one of those lovely big, erm, I can’t remember the name of the soaps, they’re famous, and they’re rather large and round, sort of pleated to hold them together. Oh, yes, I could go and find it and tell you. Anyway, she gave one of those to me, and I still have it. I haven’t used it or opened it. Yeah, she was glorious, and she’d done so much, but she knew so many people. She knew Vivian Lee and Lawrence (Olivier). She said in the dressing room, once – you know, people were unfair to Vivian; she was very, very vulnerable. Really, people could be unkind to her, but she was an enchanting woman. 

Not sure if you can use this little story because it’s rude, but she was the one not me! The thing about The Cedar Tree is that you very rarely had any exteriors. One or two. But normally everything was in the house. So if you wanted to see somebody who was looking out of the window at something they just shot it from out of the window, and the person had to pretend about what they were looking at. Because they didn’t do exteriors. Joyce was supposed to be looking out of the window at a carriage, which was going slowly past. Going slowly past. With an eyeline to follow. This carriage had the Queen in it or something. And it was taking such an age, and she was being told, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, and she was trying to follow this thing slowly, slowly, slowly across so that the camera could have it from the carriage’s angle if you see what I mean. Joyce, who was terribly prim and such a lady suddenly said –  ‘for goodness sake, where is the fucking carriage?’ It was so unexpected! 

Talking about those looking out of the window scenes… The lovely fellow, who played Jim Tapper, the sort of gardener, he had to do a looking out of the window scene too, and he was having trouble because he was supposed to be watching the cedar tree and the wind blowing, worrying that it was going to be blown down. Having to pretend all this stuff with no sight lines! Can you imagine them doing that now? It would be unimaginable to do. 

You couldn’t get away with it now, I know. But the viewer had to use some imagination as well, didn’t they? Which I kind of think that’s maybe why you remember these things more because you’ve had to do a little bit of the work yourself, even as a young child watching it. 

It is lovely. And I mean, I guess, hard work with lines and things. You had a time limit because you would rehearse, then you’d have your camera rehearsal, and then you’d shoot it. And you had a very specific time to do that, so you’re always a bit on tenterhooks about getting it right.

Regarding the question that you put about the writers… I don’t think I met any of the writers. I can’t remember them being present at rehearsals. I may be wrong, but my memory is that they wouldn’t be. But with regard to Alfred (Shaughnessy)… I knew Alfred because his son, David, was at drama school with me, we were in the same year. David now lives in America.

Entertainment casting was very different in those days as well. You had casting directors who you actually came to know and be friends with. Maureen Risco, I think who was casting that, and she became a mate. She was friends with my then agent, and everybody knew everybody, somehow. Today, everybody’s turned into their machines. They’ve all become remote. I say to my daughter when she’s going bananas because she’s a singer-songwriter, she’s just about to go on her first tour actually. And I say to her, you know, once upon a time, life was so easy you didn’t have to do these things. Yes, because now it goes with the territory. And when you met somebody you made friends with them and so, every little area, your makeup, your costume, your casting director, your directors… It was like a big family. That doesn’t happen anymore. Everything’s fleeting, everything’s quick.

And I think that does come across for the viewer. Everything is breakneck speed, isn’t it? And, sometimes that’s great, but there’s another way of storytelling where things kind of emerge rather than you’re straight in over your head with things. Yes, in fact, I do love the old black and white movies ever so much. I find them. I like to have noise on all the time now. So you could just relax with that in the background. It certainly feels like there’s less warmth in a lot of things that you see now, I mean. Old Hollywood movies, you know, there’s a lot to be loved about those things I think. But every new generation gets used to its new ways, I guess. When you look at a movie from the old days and everything’s so much slower. In the really old ones, if a character reads a letter, for example, and they put the letter in front of the camera. It seems like an interminable length of time. Whereas now you’ve got to get quick clips because they know that everything has to be hyper quick because they’ve got to make money. Money is lost if anyone switches off so we’ve got to keep eyes on the screen at all times. 

But I think it’s a short-term approach, really, because ultimately you don’t come back and watch it again because you’ve not connected with it as much. Your character Laura was a good example (of slower storytelling) because she came in, and she was an innocent young girl to start with, but then she really changed and over time became enamoured with the right wing fascism that was going on at the time and became almost brainwashed. Must have been interesting for you to play the subtle change.

Yes. A chappie came in, Stephen Pacey, who played a German. So, yeah, they were touching on the politics of it, but in a very delicate sort of way.  That was until I got married to John Oxford. And he was a sweetheart. He became a chum. I was looking him up actually. John Oxley, that’s right. And um, we got on really well, and he was adorable, and we got married. And the funny thing about it, I suppose it still happens sometimes. I got loads of letters and congratulatory marriage cards, and so it was real. Which I thought was extraordinary. It’s incredible, isn’t it? How that happens, particularly with continuing series. Where people really get to know the characters and kind of think they’re almost real.

 I remember people asking – how is it doing an afternoon thing? My reply was actually, it’s really nice doing an afternoon thing because you are appealing to a huge section of our society. And I thought,  I really like to be part of that, you know, to be part of a gentle entertaining thing, about which people write and say, how much they enjoy it, and I get recognised in, you know. There were a lot of housewives in those days who were probably stuck at home watching afternoon television, and I thought that was really, really nice. I think there were only about three channels so everyone was watching. So you do something and you could become more well known. In the same situation now, because there are so many channels and things to watch so that you know, you don’t sort of get a look in in regard to numbers. It’s that transient thing they’ll see you and they might know you for a little while, but then they’ll soon forget and go on to the next one. Life has changed in so many ways. Now everyone’s watching a different thing.